In my last reply to Scott which everyone can read here, I felt we reached the half way point in which we can dialogue. But sadly, he transformed into somewhat the discriminative creature again. I will therefore ask him questions here, for him to answer to, point by point. Answer yes or no, then state the justification. I hope he would be honest to himself and to God answering this:
"In the midst of crafting my post, I must have gotten the impression that we were using guys as an example, which didn’t mean we were excluding girls. My apologies for not being gender neutral and politically correct more often."
1) Do you feel more comfortable with girls sleeping with girls more than guys sleeping with guys?
"I merely was trying to explain my viewpoint that willing acceptance of homosexual behaviour IN ITSELF is a sin, whereas heterosexuality is God’s original plan. (Something disagreed with by yourself, of course.)"
2) Do you claim homosexuality as non existant orientation, and just a 'lifestyle' based chosen behaviour that consititutes immediate sin, as disagreed by these groups, which agrees by me:
American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association?
Together all the above represents more than 477,000 mental and health professionals from school level to the professional level, all agreed that: homosexuality is a normal condition, homosexuality is not a mental condition, homosexuality is not a choice, homosexuality is not a disease and homosexuality cannot be 'cured'. Ex-gays, such as RLM, will claim the APA are infiltrated by pro-gays. But what about ALL the bodies supporting the consesus? More than 477,000. Think about it.
3) Do you disagree with these 477,000 mental and health professionals' stance?
4) Even if science proves homosexuality is a God given orientation, you would still say no because God says so, even though He never said it clearly?
"I must be really blur, I don’t realize myself where I contradicted me or made Jesus seem to be contradicting Himself. And I meant gender-bias as in treating women as second-class citizens, btw, not as in sexual orientation."
5) Do you claim that you know what is gender identity vs sexual orientation?
6) Do you think that transsexuals are equivalent to homosexuals, eg. an extreme form of homosexuality?
"So how do I resolve this issue? I submit to the Bible’s words, which I can’t interpret into a form that agrees with my above viewpoint. Perhaps God means us to try and reconcile ALL kinds of problems in a marriage, no matter how serious. Except sexual infidelity, which is joining the flesh with that of another.
But bottom line, I submit my own will to God’s as I understand it. And I reiterate: I do not feel homosexuality is wrong from a humanistic point of view. If two consenting adults are happy, why object? But I believe that the Bible tells us it is not desireable. (And from a natural viewpoint, it seems to be a self-denying reproduction strategy.)"
7) You think that even in what God says about marriage divorce in the Bible, we are to reconcile it. But what you think God says about being homosexual, can never be reconciled?
"However, the fact that male-male sexual relationships were part of pagan rituals doesn’t make it seem any more acceptable to me - on the contrary, it seems even more like something to avoid! Just IMHO.
And I wouldn’t define it as purely prostitution… Undoubtedly many relationships would have been based on mutual attraction. Greece and Rome were renowned for their pederasty, with many Graeco-Roman deities and legends having had boy lovers, including Zeus and Hercules."
8) You believe male to male sexual relationships in pagan rituals is equivalent to male to male sexual love IYHO?
"I have to reiterate, I did not begin this back-and-forth discussion because I felt that my rigths were under attack, but because I felt that the Christian faith’s stand on what is right and wrong by God’s reckoning was being undermined. More on that at the conclusion.
I respect that LGTs feel their lifestyle is wonderful, and respectfully disagree that Christ condones it. I’m not sure about the hurting God by discussing part."
9) Do you admit you did initiate the first attack the LGT community, when you openly fired on the gay pastor who wants to open a church for LGTs to worship on the 10th of August? http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2007/08/10/gay-pastor-wants-to-start-church-in-kl/ with these imposing sentences:
'The bottom line: You can be gay, but you can’t be Christian and gay.
Or go ahead and remain gay. Open a new religious-congregation building - just don’t call it a church.
Lead the worshippers in prayer - just don’t call yourself a pastor.
And teach your version of religion - just don’t call it Christian'
10) Do you agree that in all the 4 gospels and Revelations, Christ said nothing about homosexuality; but mentioned a lot of things in regards to marriage and divorce?
"I admit that the prevailing view among Christians and Asians surrounding me is that homosexuality is unGodly. And I admit that this view would have been passed on to me. But my current beliefs are entirely my own, my research and logicking all to my own satisfaction.
If my convictions happen to match what was told to me in childhood, put it down to coincidence, because there are plenty other views that do not match."
11) Do you agree that Asian Christians tend to be paranoid and conservative than their Caucassion counterparts?
12) You do not know that Buddhist and Hindu do not reject homosexuals and transsexuals, yes?
13) You do not know that 32% percent of Malaysian are Buddhists, and only 2% of Malaysians are Christians, yes? (The State and New Religious Movements in Malaysia by Raymond L. M. Lee)?
14) You do not think that being one of the 2% Christian makes you the primary moral guardian over all the 32% of Buddhists, yes?
15) Do you really believe a homosexual cannot be a Christian and will end up in hell, the same way Buddhists will end up in hell because they are not Christians?
"I don’t really follow. Clarification? I actually only brought in the Mormons as a casual example. I could have just as easily used any other example, meaning that I didn’t mean to imply anything specifically to do with the Latter Day Saints."
16) So you have more problems with Metropolitan Community Church as a LGT affirming church, more so than Metropolitan Community Church being Mormon affiliated?
"I suppose the reason I even ever posted about the Star newspaper report about the homosexuality-accepting church is because I felt that MY system of belief was under attack, i.e. mainstream Christianity with all its doctrines, including the teaching that homosexuality is not right by God.
It felt to me that my declared faith was being hijacked. That people with differing beliefs - irreconciliable alternate doctrine - had just come along and told the whole country, “Hey! WE are the REAL Christians and this is what Christianity really teaches!”"
17) So you believe barely 6 arguably faint verses about homosexuality in the Bible, mostly in the old times of the Old Testament, would represent an entire shift of the Gospel Of Christ Jesus, and enough to hijack salvatoin, and even an entire faith,?
"And feeling thus feeling ‘under attack’, I went on the ‘defense’ and made known my strong emotions in that first post."
18) You would not feel anything when Buddhists pray to Guan Yin and the smoke goes to your house, but you are feeling uncomfortable with the idea of what two men do in bed and feel that is an attack to your beliefs?
"And that’s my clarification. I hope you can empathize with how I felt, and probably how many other mainstreamers in Malaysia feel, even if you disagree with the reasonableness of the cause of my feelings."
19) If you emphatize of the feelings of LGTs first, then there is not need for even written attacks, yes?
"I suppose a comparison would be like NAMBLA (which promotes underage sex with boys) showing up and claiming that “All tolerant and accepting LGTs support our practise because we’re the most enlightened of all sexual preference groups! Only the bigots cannot accept us, and they’re hypocrites who have forgotten how they themselves were prejudiced against by the heterosexuals!”
In fact, NAMBLA did try to associate themselves into the larger LGT community, and were mostly given the cold shoulder."
20) Are you equating boys who have sex for fun while still in their puberty, with men who are in their 40s and in love with each other, then have sex?
"In conclusion, I believe we understand each other on this matter: We have differing viewpoints, and are each convinced of our own correctness. I guess we shall leave it at that. And if we never come to agree on this matter, I hope to meet one day in Heaven and have it all sorted out then."
21) God DID say in heaven there is no male or female, yes?
"I am actually not very much into debating sexual orientations. I’m much more practised at debating evolution, global warming and the historical basis of Christianity and its Scirptures."
22) Then do you agree we should stop debating about this, and you would stop commenting anything anymore about sexual orientation and gender identity, since it is my line of field and not yours, and you have other things to dialogue with with others?
These last few are general questions:
23) Do you read the New Testament more than the Old Testament and agree that God in the New Testament is very much different than God in the Old Testament?
24) Like in the Old Testament days, God commands people to kill. Mothers are to kill disobeying children, people are to stone people to death, but God did say 'thou shalt not murder'; so if God asks you to kill, you would not do it, yes?
25) You hereby state this: You have the right to go to church, serve in the ministry, while praising and worship God. You also reserve the right to deny homosexuals the right to go to church, serve in the ministry, while praising and worshiping God. Yes?
26) You hereby state this: You have no right to deny Buddhists the right to go to temples, perform their rituals, and worshiping Buddha; but even if you have the right you would not use it, even though their teachings, even by your Christian principles, is totally against God. Yes?27) You hereby state this: Any positive mention of civil rights for homosexuals would infringe your comfort zone, and you feel that, while maintaining your civil rights, it is your right to deny homosexuals their civil rights. Yes?
28) You hereby state this: The Church Of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) and Jehovah's Witness have churches, semiars and meetings in Malaysia. As you know, their religion is against Christianity's full principles. But the you, along with NECF, CCM and other Christian associations barely raise a sigh. But you all feel that when homosexual pastor wants to open a church in Malaysia, which has no affect to your life, and only against Christianity by culture, you feel have the right to react to it by condemning him. Yes?
29) You hereby state this: You believe you have the right to tell people who do nothing to disturb your life, how they should live, especially when when you are not them, in the same way you are not a homosexual and you think you know what is best for them?
30) You hereby state this loud and clear, before God and me: When you see two men holding hands (min) or having sex (max); you feel offended, disgusted and uncomfortable first, long before you think of God, or what God has to say, or pray for them. YES?
"All in all, it’s been an informative discussion. I’ve appreciated getting to know how you think and why you think it, and I hold no ill will or poor perception of you."
Again, please answer all the 25 questions, yes or no, then state your justification. However you wish to answer these questions, I do not think it is worthy time to discuss further with you. I believe by answering the questions itself, it will show everyone your current state of mind. And any further discussions would only be going around in circles, in the case of faith in God says so (plus ex-gay manipulated science which you think is otherwise) vs the reality and truth (the full current general medical opinion: http://www.progressiveu.org/132044-what-most-doctors-say-about-homosexuality-a-collection-of-policy-statements-by-the-major-professional-associations. Even Rober Spitzer, says Christians are manipulating his work: http://www.sfbaytimes.com/index.php?sec=article&article_id=5924
"“Unfortunately Focus on the Family has once again reported findings of my study out of context to support their fight against gay rights,” said Dr. Spitzer."
I hold not ill will or poor perception of you too. But I do believe your battles are not with LGTs. Please believe me; you are just not in this field even scientifically to talk about it. All you can do is prejudice and say God says so and so, that homosexuals are not Christians, when God says barely anything. It is better to stay mum about it.
I think this misinformation campaign will suit you. They are very disturbing and I must admit I am not fit to discuss anything with them. It is that exasparating. Perhaps, you can put your thoughts on it, They have a forum there too: http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/.
"God bless… Seriously and honestly!"
God bless… Seriously and honestly to you too. Ditto.