However, some of his prejudice really shone throughout his responses; totally not separating what people wrote with what I wrote, still choosing to shower the ex-gays according to RLM without researching anything on ex-gays internationally, and cherry picking verses again to prove his worth. Sadly, as we all know, intolerance do influence the way we view the world, and the Bible.
“christian popes had murdered alot of scientists long ago just because they denied what the popes told the society …
I’d like to see the documented basis for this ‘fact’… As opposed to Wikipedia on myths regarding science and Wikipedia on the relationship between religion and science (under ‘Perspectives on the historical relationship between religion and science’).
And non–religious people had lots of their own myths that they stubbornly clinged to, such as spontaneous generation and an infinitely old, unchanging universe (both of which remove the need for a Creator).
You might add evolution to that bag. And those who are skeptical of global warming are being treated in the same spirit as your quotation claims the Popes treated heliocentric supporters. Religion doesn’t have the monopoly on bias, arrogance and bullying.
The views of Mie of Malaysiatoday, do not represent my views. My point of putting that up is just a simple reminder of the Bible declaring something on the basis of discovery of the earth's shape and rotation. 500 years ago, there was an equality debatable cause in terms of what the Bible says as the 'truth', and what the Christian fundamentalists think at that time of Galileo's version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair.
Whatever excuse we try to make, the Bible's credibility was already shattered back in the 300ADs at Nicea. No one dares to deny this, especially how the politics and the split of religion between the Roman Catholics and Protest-ants eventually influenced the landscape of Bible History.
I’ve met a few Christians that believe that homosexuality is worse than murder. They base this belief on what I said above. One time act vs. a continuous lifestyle choice. Ken R - exgaywatch.
I believe you are familiar with the Christian doctrines on forgiveness of sins.
Let’s say I murdered many people in cold blood. After years of killing, I regret what I did and repent. I turn to Christ for forgiveness and change my lifestyle, surrendering myself to the police if I haven’t already been caught. Am I thus saved and justified by God? Doctrine says YES.
But let’s say I did all the above murdering, and did not repent. If I continue on in my lifestyle, am I saved? Doctrine says NO.
What if I accept Christ as my saviour, and continue my murdering? Doctrine says NO.
Now, not to equate murder to homosexuality (murder is far worse in my book), but it’s the issue of repentance.
If Hitler and Stalin, the kings of mass murder themselves, were to accept Christ and change their life, they would be saved!
But if the most petty of accounting fraudsters, stealing pennies a day, claimed to accept Christ but refused to admit his wrong and change… He’d still be condemned.
It is worse FOR the homosexual who doesn’t repent and change than FOR the one-time murdered who begs God’s forgiveness… Like the parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14.
(Assuming of course that homosexuality IS a willful sin before God’s eyes. And I’m placing homosexual rationalizers as the Pharisee here, not myself.)
Good anti-disclaimer. The mirror has two faces. Surprisingly, John 3:16 is overlooked again; better yet, I will quote to verse 21.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Homosexuals, CAN be Christians. If homosexuality is soooooo evil, then surely homosexuals would hate the light of Christianity? And we are sinning everyday, straight or not. Can we deny this? Small issues like being angry is enough. That is why God already said, we are saved by GRACE.)
We give every reason to why the old laws of Leviticus could not be applied at our times now, but totally singling out homosexuality. Why?
Because the laws of Leviticus are applied to Jews, and we are not Jews.
However, the New Testament is strongly opposed to homosexual behaviour. If one argues that it is only as bad as gossiping and slandering, well then, I respond that those ‘minor’ sins are actually very bad indeed! I could debate the meaning and application of said NT passages if you wish.
The funny thing is debates are not even necessary. Each of the verses in the New Testament points out nothing about homosexuality as we know of today. Same Sex Love. Which part of this that is not understandable.
If a person loves Greek so much, of course he would know the word 'Arsenokoitai' (which is translated tons of different words from feline behaviour to homosexual behaviour, in itself, proves its inaccuracy) is often accompanied with the word 'qadesh' (male priest).
Even in the most SIMPLEST commentary on homosexuality in the New Testament, it is all about pagan temple worships. And that is only giving the SIMPLEST tip of the commentary. People would deny this for their own lust to cling on to prejudice. Even if Scott wants to perform some Bible bashing, I am almost sure, that his resources would come from extremist Christians. Extremist, because only people that has nothing better to do than to bash homosexuals would bother to bash it up. Neutrals theologians would agree too. Because when neutrals publish their research, they get bashed up by them too!
It is nearly an end game for ex-gay ministries in throughout the world. At the turn of the century, homosexuality is now confirmed as inborn, and not socially constructed.
I tend to be skeptical of any claim that a behaviour is 100% nature or 100% nurture. In the case of sexual orientation, there are many confirmed cases of exposure to environment influencing the sexual ‘orientation’.
I will half agree. We already know that homosexuality are sometimes inborn and sometimes socially constructed. I will not deny this. But there needs to be a separation between homosexuality that is socially constructed, and homosexuality that is not. There are grown straight men who like experimenting, surely everyone know of this. Be logical.
Pastor Edmund Smith (although you think not-highly of him) is one example, as are the stories of people he ministered to. And yes, amazingly, many of them WERE ‘cured’. But I would rather say, repented and were renewed by the Holy Spirit.
Tons of other people who attended his 'ministry', ended up disturbed by it. He has no scientific knowledge on homosexuality or sexual issues. His ignorance in depicting homosexuals as 'gender confused' could not get more backlash.
The thing is, he IS like that. His homosexuality is socially constructed. The problem is he thinks just because he is like that, everyone is the same. His Ministry, as I admitted time and time again, would help a lot of people just like him, but those whose orientation is at its core homosexual, would find his 'teachings' silly and illogical.
Personal point, I would respect him more if he used general medical terms, not self invented labels. There is a big difference between 'Gender Identity Disorder' and 'Self-Issues with Gender'. As for knowledge, he does not even know the difference between 'transvestite' and 'transsexual'. I am tired of explaining again. If you want to the hard facts about how he deviates, only then I will let you know.
As for change, it can happen to confused straights like him (note the -ed with no insults intended), or they choose to be celibate. This can no longer be denied. Even Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International, the largest ex-gay ministry in the world, finally admitted he had not seen even one ex-gay in his life, and that they only choose to be celibate.
Is alcoholism or propensity for violence genetically determined? Very likely in part, but does that give one a license to be drunken or smash furniture? Does being ‘born that way’ make it any more acceptable before God? Not likely.
Separate what is external, and what is internal; being drunken and smashing furniture harms others. What great harm would be done when two men are together in a room watching a movie? (The examples given here thus far is still personified by dogmas.)
The definition of the ‘homosexual lifestyle’ is still one of the most bothersome questions Christians can ever answer. The word ‘lifestyle’ itself is as vague as homosexual ‘behaviour’. What constitutes the ’sinful lifestyle’? Going to a mall? How is it any different than a heterosexual lifestyle?
The difference is clear and simple: One has sexual and romantic thoughts about the same gender. Going to the mall, eating breakfast, worshipping in church… Everything is the same, but the mentality and heart are what makes the difference.
The question sadly remains unanswered. What is so sinful about one that has sexual and romantic thoughts about the same gender? The mind and the heart? Good. God judges us on that. So what is so wrong about homosexuals' mind and heart? Sinful. If it is SOOOOO sinful, then show me words, printed in red, that CHRIST condemns homosexuals. Surely Our Saviour would mention it, since it is such a big deal!
Example, images of provocative artistes such as Shakira and Beyonce are on display almost every single day. Their adulteress like ‘behaviour’ on MTV, barely clothed and hip shaking shows are watched by millions all across the world. So how can we support that and say that it is okay, but the expression of two men in love considered a higher level of sin?
We cannot support or condone it. I get really riled up by the sin pumped into our homes and cars every day by disgusting MTV, especially R & B! I strongly condemn it! This is the true religion of the Blue States of the USA – the flesh and the self!
I advise anyone I know not to let themselves be polluted with sex-worshipping corruption like this. Turn off that radio and switch off that TV!
Good, agreed. Now someone go and start a ministry on that. Billions are exposed to these stuff everyday! Heterosexual behaviour, as admitted here, is sinful too!
Being homosexual is not defying God’s law. Sadly, as it is well known ever since 1949, bias crept into the Bible through translators.
Then let’s use the 1611 A.D. Old King James version:
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals (catamites), nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” - 1st Corinthians 6:9-10
This is impossibly shallow. The word 'homosexual' is only invented in 1869! What is read here is just another updated translation from an old source. In fact, I say thank you. It is now proven the bigotry of some publishers, dare they taint the Bible! As for the long, long list of olden scriptures io Greek, I suggest research be done on the pagan worships in the old days of Rome and Corinth (the sex capital of the world at that time) with NEUTRAL sources. Christian sources would always point you in the wrong direction. Of course they make our Scott feel so high in lust about condemning homosexuality!
As for the zhubert sigh, aw... why you do not just piece up every single translation word by word for it. Which just gives me a thought. If we can reconcile words in Hebrew and Greek with our English, even though it means so vastly different in the end; why not reconcile the Fundie Christianity of today with the vastly different reality of the world? After all, we do not want to tell women to shut up because God says so in the New Testament, rite?
Next, we can attend services focusing on honesty by a convicted white-collar criminal. [Scott’s words]
It is amazing how a person could not separate criminal activity, with love between two men.It is amazing how a person could not separate criminal activity, with love between two men.
That and Michael Jackson were just popular examples to illustrate the point. Try these instead, they have the same meaning:
Next, we can attend services focusing on holiness in thought led by a pornographic website host. And then, learn about how to be chaste from 17-year old Ms. Shelley, who is pregnant with her fifth child of unknown parentage. Finally, let’s learn how to read God’s word as fable from an atheist professor of Higher Criticism and Biblical Deconstructivism.
Boy, this is really getting stale. Okay, I get it. I hear ya. The stories are stories of harm done to others. Vividly. Period. So tell me how two men in love harms others? Tell me! Pertinent questions remain unanswered. And dogmatic beliefs are used to be imposed again.
The VAST majority of mainstream REAL church are known as Christian liberals.
I would argue that the VAST majority of FAKE AND SUPERMARKET CONSUMER churches are liberal.
Seriously, why even adopt Christianity if you don’t believe in God’s judgement? If He isn’t going to judge us, then we don’t need Christ’s forgiveness. Go and vote Democrat already.
Simple because LGTs know God would not judge LGTs for being who we are. Just imagine, putting up a mask everyday, lying to everyone that you are straight when you are not, getting a girlfriend for the sake of getting a girlfriend just to prove you are straight, then breaking the girl's heart when she knows you are gay. Denial, will hurt not only the self, but even others.
That is what I mean a lot of times I said, DO NOT DEFINE GOD FOR OTHERS. This is our personal relationship with Him. Come to think of it, we are both guilty of this.
---------------------It is not the orientation. It is the person. God judges the matters of the heart, remember?
Is the heart really, truly seeking to please Him by following His precepts? Or is it reasoning and rationalizing to itself in order to justify its earthly desires?
Besides, it is a misconception that the heart is what counts. If I have a good heart and do good deeds but never receive Christ, am I then saved?
If my heart SINCERELY tells me that killing non-believers is a holy and commendable thing that the victims deeply appreciate, does God smile upon my pure motives? Or am I a nutcase?
It is amazing. You have not even BEGIN to describe to me how homosexuals would KILL others. Molestation? Heterosexuals do it too! Influencing others? Would you be influenced to be a homosexual? Ouch and Ouch again. Name me one thing that is so bloody different about heterosexuality and homosexuality. Even heterosexuals have anal! This I believe is getting to be a pretty annoying presentation, still equating crime with love. It is not the orientation. It is the person! The mind and the heart!
I do not think any person would agree to that. The third world mentality of some young men is really getting stale. So I can be born left handed and I cannot be a Christian? I am born with a third hand, so I am left out of His kingdom?If the first world mentality is “Hey, let’s decide for ourselves what should be moral right and wrong and interpret the Scripturs to suit our agenda!”… Then I am exceedingly proud to be third world.
You can be born with huge claws for hands and an insatiable bloodlust, but if you seek God and obey His laws, you’ll be fine by Him.
My point is simply: God condemns homosexuality. How can one claim to be a follower, a servant, as subject of God and disobey Him blatantly to His face? Worse, disobey and say that God thinks it’s a great thing you do?
Wow, again and again. Dogma all over again. And the only 'agenda' homosexuals have is to be equal with heterosexuality. What is bloody wrong with that? And sorry, I do not argue with 'God condemns homosexuality' dogma. You got yours. People got theirs. Belief is hard to argue with.
When two or three homosexuals or heterosexuals gather in the name of the Lord, it is therefore called a church. Something must be wrong when Christians still think the church is a building. Probably to much anguish caused by attending talks by a confused misinformative ministry.
You missed the point entirely.
What I am saying is, if you don’t follow the Christian rules, puh-leeze don’t hijack the Christian terms. It’s bad enough that half the cults out there say that they have the ‘real’ teachings of the ‘real’ Second Coming of Christ or whatever.
A church is Christ-obeying people, gathering wherever it may be. So please, don’t call a group of Christ-disobeying-and-self-rationalizing people a church. Make a new religion or something. The Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Reverend Moon will give you pointers.
I am sorry to say this. But it is dogma again. Dogma after Dogma. Maybe you should ask a person who is borned by God without hands to pray for God to suddenly make hands for a person. Or tell him that He cannot be included.
It is weird that we mention we are created by God's image again and again, but fail to realise that it is His intention for us to have different orientations. Strange that you mentioned the Mormons though, because I am digging up some disturbing things about MCC. The ignorance and condemnation based on broken religious stances is really getting tiring. Luckily, it is coming to the end soon.
God chooses pastors for the church. Some people just loves playing God.
What’s to stop fakes from CLAIMING that God chose them for their church? I can do that too, just watch:
“GOD CHOSE ME TO BE THE NEXT POPE!!! IT IS HIS WILL THAT I SUPPORT MANDATORY STERILIZATION OF ALL HUMANS!!!”
“…Hey, why isn’t anyone listening to my divine revelation? God chose me what!”
I agree on the playing God bit, but I would say it is those who decide what SHOULD be right and wrong and twist the Word of God to fit their perception. But of course, I would be accused of that by those people, right? Ah, the vagaries of subjectivity…
I think we are all guilty of that. Are you not doing the same thing? The truth is we still seek to use the Bible to validate our sense of selves. But the difference is, one is to AFFIRM. One is to CONDEMN. I wonder what God will say about this.
Christians are overrated. I will settle with believer in Christ. I am utterly astonished at how some fundamentalist people still fail to remember Christian fundamentals such as John 3:16.
Too many people spout on about God’s love, and too few remember God’s holiness, righteousness and judgement in countless passages, such as Ecclesiastes 12:14 - “For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.”
Yes, thank you. At least you acknowledged GOOD and evil. Scott just placed a boot into his own mouth. But it is not his fault, really. It is just the misunderstandings and the misinformation socially constructed into him. He really needs healing.
The Bible according to some fellow who is hogwashed by another fellow who was hogwashed… Or we could just read the Bible as just the Bible, without questions, without interpretations and without prejudice; not picking up lines and make them justifications to stampede on a minority group just because we feel uncomfortable with them. Now, THAT would grief the Holy Spirit.
What grieves the Holy Spirit is men like Paul warned of in 2nd Timothy 4:3 - “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”
What griefs the Holy Spirit? Amazing interpretation. The Holy Spirit is within us. If we are really grieving it, do you think we would not know? In this entire conversation, I refuse to indulge the use of verses. This is the example why. This verse applies back to Scott. And LGTs have no teachers. But this verse sounds so profoundly like Ps E.S.
Matthew 7: 1-2“1Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
Ah, the favourite defensive verse of the accused. I always respond that I am ready to stand in the courtroom of God, convinced and convicted of the righteousness of my beliefs. Are you?
I am proud to enter God's assembly, after 31 years of being pulled apart by the Churches, family, friends, Real Love Ministry even; that God convicted me, released me from my sorrows of stigmas, prejudice and discrimination, showed me the purpose of why I am inflicted with a radical disorder, and to do His Will to reconcile the reality of the world with Christianity. Our Saviour be my best judge.
In my conclusions, I commend Scott Thong's stand, even if it is rilled with contradictions (just read his conclusion, I am tired of copy and pasting). But I do not mind. He is an example of a person who is a victim of church social circumstances. And lately, a victim of a misinformation campaign, run by an organization equipped with water. This is normal. I used to be brainswashed into becoming a zealot too long time ago, only to finally repent of my ways, and accept myself as who I am, along with others.
Edmund Smith can still be good for people; if it was not for the experience of being under him, I would not have affirmed the remaining parts of me that is scared, and too scarred, to be myself. And I am thankful he drew me into the world of ex-gays, so that I know part of God's will in my life. And now I can re-examine another position under Rev Ou Yang; is it not great that this matter it is finally getting people to think, some people would still be discriminative, bu some would actually start to research on what homosexuality is all about. I am just keen to know more and more about him and his position.
After all is said and done, I do not think there is anymore things to justify in my part. If there are, my journeys would not have started. To those who have read The Journey Of Yuki thus far, I give my warm and sincere thanks. Take care.
I guess old habits die hard.
For all the disillusions I am facing when confronting the Rev Ou Yang issue, I find it equally disturbing that there are still people willing to attack other people's faith in God. This is the very reason why so many people turn away from Our Saviour. God makes us holy because we are not. Therefore it is disgusting that we try to justify bigotry by using holiness as an excuse. I appeal to you all, to have sensibility. Please also remember 19% of Malaysians are Buddhists. Their beliefs also need to be respected.
I also compliment Rev Ou Yang's near silent stance in the face of all these harrasing words, it can be likened to the provocation and snares when Jesus carried the cross on His shoudler. I shudder to think how we can save souls when we keep on giving reasons for such hatred. It is not healthy. It is hurtful. It is not love. It is an utter embarrassment for all believers in Christ.